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Kinks in My Punishment Kink: The Feminist Question
As I've mentioned a few times both here and on my personal blog, this last year found me struggling a great deal with my punishment kink. Some of the concerns have been lingering beneath the surface since I first started exploring my spanking fetish. Others have developed more recently. In the end, however, it all came down to four little words: but I miss it. There's a certain buzz I get from the profound vulnerability that comes with the punishment kink and the intimacy that vulnerability produces is nothing less than amazing.
I started chipping away at all these issues in one post but eventually realized that, even if I managed to write said post (which kept feeling more and more unwieldly), nobody would ever actually read it because it would be too damn long. ;) So, I finally decided that it would be more manageable to write and read if I broke it up into a series of posts.
The first issue is one that has been a more recent question as the beginning of the year found me connecting with my inner Appalled Feminist.
It's taken having a debilitating chronic illness and clashing with the Church regarding my first long term relationship to appreciate the level of oppression women not only have suffered throughout human history, but continue to suffer today, albeit most often in far more subtle forms. Most of that oppression is in the form of guilt and shame about our bodies, our spirituality, our work, our sexuality, our family responsibilities, our clothes, and a bazillion other things. Frankly, I just got tired of carrying around the guilt and shame. Of constantly believing all the "you should be doing this" and "you shouldn't be doing that." Last winter I finally came to a point where I simply decided I just wasn't going to feel guilt or shame anymore. Momentary regret, perhaps. But only insofar as it helped me think about how I might do something differently. Yet, how do you have a punishment fetish when you don't feel guilt and shame?
Now, feminism in and of itself does not present a problem as having a punishment fetish is not necessarily gender specific. There are women who spank men. There are men who fantasize about being spanked by men (though they apparently don't blog about it). There are women who spank women, including on this very blog. Yet overwhelmingly it's men spanking women. Again, not necessarily a problem. Except that my Appalled Feminist can't ever completely divorce the thousands of years of misogynist baggage that has accumulated along the way when I read anything related to Domestic Discipline, especially when at times it descends into true misogyny.
Most of the time it's the stereotypes that bother my Appalled Feminist. The endless sagas of women who are routinely bitchy and thoughtless and need to be somehow tamed and structured by their always emotionally-stable and efficient husbands (because women never multi-task or have a reason to be bitchy, right?). Or the paternalistic and condescending discourse in which women have to be taught what is safe or proper or considerate as if they are eternal children incapable of figuring out those issues like other adults.
The point of feminism, of course, is to allow women to make choices about what's best for them. But what if, my Appalled Feminist asks, some women have so internalized a patriarchal construct of women that they continue to make choices that perpetuates oppression? What if I have so internalized that construct that it's affected my sexuality?
I don't always have good answers for the questions my Appalled Feminist asks. But I have been able to help her reconcile herself to my punishment fetish by explaining a few things.
The punishment kink is about taking bad habits that everybody has whether they be men, women, tops, bottoms or switches and allowing yourself to be very vulnerable regarding this habit in a way that provides sexual synergy for both the top and the bottom.
In the punishment kink both partners (or at least it should be both) knowingly create a construct in which one is in a position of authority over the other that provides that emotional and sexual buzz.
On some level my sexuality expresses itself as a child in need of a parent. That doesn't mean that I am a child. If I was, this whole construct would be entirely inappropriate.
Within this construct we speak and act in ways that would be cruel and unfair outside of the construct. Nobody ever really deserves to be hit with a hairbrush or forced to hold a bar of soap in his or her mouth (in fact, I'm always creeped out when someone will ask me if I deserved to be punished). But when we say we deserved it or our partner whacks us with a rattan cane, we are fully aware that we are acting within the construct we have chosen and actively participated in constructing.
On some level, guilt can also (and maybe even instead of) produce arousal or excitement, especially when connected to punishment, instead of just shame.
And ultimately that -- women having control over guilt and shame -- is a profoundly feminist act.
By Natty on 01 December 2006 in Musings, Natty | Permalink
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Comments
I don't know, Natty, I'm so used to the absence of the Appalled Feminist (tm LOL) and her voice in relation to spanking, that it gave me quite a jolt that she may indeed need a few things spelled out to her.
All can I say is - nicely put.
The Stereotyping Idiots (tm too) may need occassionally clubbing over the head with tangible reality and diversity of disciplined women, of course, but letting the Appalled Feminist (tm) out to deal with them can be quite an overkill and is bad for one's libido. I'll just remain an non-appalled, sex-positive (OK, spanking-positive) feminist :)
Posted by: Haron | Dec 1, 2006 4:04:30 PM
I've never posted here before, but I read the Punishment Book pretty regularly. But I felt the need to respond to this post specifically because I struggle with the issue of feminism, sexuality, and spanking, and - I even wrote a monologue about it, which I'm performing this weekend. Really scary, but an important issue to me.
I'm far more embarrassed to admit that punishment excites me than to admit that spanking excites me because although I'm attracted to women and men, I'm only interested in being spanked in any context by men. For me, it's a major problem because I end up being most attracted to men that are in control and want to be in control, but I don't actually like being a submissive partner, partially because of my feminist ideals and partially because I'm not really a submissive individual.
Anyway, I was really glad you brought up this issue. I, too, try to think in terms of spanking and punishment being non-gendered, but it bothers me that in my case, it is.
Posted by: Heather | Dec 1, 2006 4:24:39 PM
I think whenever spanking, discipline, punishment, BDSM in a M/f context becomes an issue for feminism and feminists (and I've heard lots of it), it's similar to issue of women who are stay-at-home-moms or housewives. It always amazes me when people go on tirades, as though those women don't have the right to choose that particular life for themselves. Embracing feminism includes (or at least it should include) the freedom to chose your career, your sexuality, your life. Which I guess is really what you've just said... so Hear Hear.
Posted by: Megs | Dec 1, 2006 9:07:33 PM
I am sorry this is going to be short and blunt - I am old-fashioned and traditional - I thought I'd just add this another perspective.
So, I am highly comfortable with the man working and me staying home with the kids, with submitting to his decisions at least for the most part (he makes better decisions most of the time, anyway). Feminism really isn't a question and never was. There's absolutely no reason for me to prove any equality with the man - cause there is no real equality, we're made for our own unique vocations - I can bear children and make jams and pickles that are the thing of a legend, while he can do things faster and can do heavier tasks. (I guess we are relatively equal when it comes to butchering poultry.) We complement each other very well in that way.
Don't get me wrong - by this point in life I've made all the right choices regarding education, career, and lifestyle, I took advantage of every opportunity that came along, and this is what I chose. So, being a mildly submissive spanko fits right in.
Posted by: amber | Dec 1, 2006 9:39:19 PM
What a beautifully written essay! I think, though obviously as Amber points out quite correctly you do not speak for all women, you most certainly just gave voice to a huge number of us who may very well have been struggling with some serious inner demons in this spanking world. I hope you take it as high praise that I plan to copy this essay and send it to a few friends of mine in the community who I think might highly benefit themselves from the message! Thank you.
Posted by: Sexy Sadie | Dec 1, 2006 11:25:15 PM
Speaking as a woman who is spanked by a woman, and more specifically, as a feminist spanked by a feminist... Let me tell you, that inner appalled feminist definitely shows up in thinking about kink.
Some of this is a legacy of both of us having been raised by second wave feminists (specifically, in this case, around the issue of being sex-negative). Although my adult sexuality has been predominantly shaped by the sex-positive, kink-positive feminists I began to spend time with in adulthood... there's still that lingering fear that I'm being a "bad feminist."
Add in my inner appalled anti-domestic-violence activist, and things get really complicated!
I hold tightly to my right to express my sexuality (and my *SELF*) in whatever ways work for me. But at the same time, I have these nagging worries about whether what I'm doing is coming from having experienced abuse, and if so, if being who I am is something I should be working on changing in therapy.
Punishment is one of the harder parts to reconcile with my inner appalled whatevers. I have in person examples of really strong, fierce, self-actualized women who are lesbians, who are kinky, and who accept themselves in all their variations. The people I know who have talked about punishment specifically, though, have only been online. And somehow, that makes it harder to dispel the worries.
This is a really thought-provoking post, Natty. Thanks!
Posted by: Dyke Grrl | Dec 2, 2006 5:03:43 AM
I'm old enough that I *was* one of those feminists of the 70s. (Okay, I was one of the younger ones, but still...!) There is an old joke about a knight who searches all over for the answer to a question: "What does a woman want most?" The answer, of course, is "her own way" or, put less childishly, the right to choose. And that is the point of feminism. We get to choose, each human for themselves. If this is what we choose, what we truly want for ourselves, for whatever reason -- because it heals us, disciplines us, increases intimacy, or turns us on -- then maybe it's just fine.
I also have worried that it was unhealthy because of the abuse I experiences. Then I realized, I've come a long way, and I can trust myself to know what feels hurtful and what feels healing. In fact, my own voice is the one that deserves my greatest trust, in regard to my own life. I may never understand why this is changing me, but I know that it is, and changing me in healing directions. Nothing matters more.
Posted by: Meghann | Dec 2, 2006 8:09:38 AM
Hmmm... My consciousness of how I feel about feminism has been developing in the last few years, too, mostly as a response to discussions in forums like this coupled with issues in my extended family.
That being said, I hear what Natty is saying, and then what Amber is saying, and thinking you are saying the same thing. Amber, you say you are living in a 'submissive spanko' relationship and that works out just fine. But Amber, that works fine for you because you chose it. And I have made the choice to live in a relationship that is mostly traditional too. In my understanding of feminism, the point is that we've made the choice, whatever it is, to follow our own ways (as Meghann said). It's okay because it's my choice. And it's okay for you, Amber, because it's your choice.
But it's not okay if you're in that relationship because society expects it of you, whether you want it or not, or because your husband forces you into it, regardless of your opinion. Just like it's not okay for a man or a woman to be on a fast-track academic career because of the expectations and demands of others. It's all about the right and responsibility to make our own choices, even if that choice is to entrust some (or all) of our decision-making to another.
Beside the reasons Natty has given (particularly in the post she linked to) about subtle forms of oppression still extant in the population, I am coming to the conclusion that feminism remains an important theory and pursuit because we are not the last women who will be making these choices... that is, it's terribly important to me that my daughter be able to have a choice and know she has a choice about what she does with her life, whether it's get a graduate degree and then stay at home to raise children and be a housewife (which is how my mother sees my path), or to be a professional athlete or to become an academic or a newer version of Ellen Degeneres or Rosie O'Donnell.
Heather, your description about being more embarrassed about the punishment thing only relating to men and not women struck a chord with me. It's always bothered me just a little bit that I could never find the same level of excitement when fantasizing about bottoming/submitting to a woman that I could in a Male/female relationship. But I've been discovering and finding more and more kinky things that I can eroticize, and it is a new experience to me to find myself waking up to dreams in the last few months where I'm being spanked and/or punished by women.
Dyke Grrl: I don't know how our childhoods and society have affected our sexual identities, but I do wish the relationship was clearer. To some extent, I hope that understanding the relationship is empowering, even if you can't or don't want to change it.
sparkle
Posted by: sparkle | Dec 2, 2006 9:03:26 AM
Argh. Dyke Grrl: Sorry about that last sentence, where I twisted the pronouns to pieces and still didn't get it right. Let's try this again..
I don't know how our childhoods and society have affected our sexual identities, but I do wish we had a clearer understanding of those relationships. My hope is that if we understood the causal relationships, we would find the knowledge empowering, even if as individuals we couldn't or didn't want to change it.
Posted by: sparkle | Dec 2, 2006 9:07:25 AM
I am a strong, independent woman... not necessarily a feminist...but in the workplace would be appalled to be treated without equality and everything else pc.
I also get much enjoyment from this website and its PCs- Posted Comments.
In my relationship... 'PC' also works very well- so long as it means: 'punishing correctly'. I need a man to be stronger than me, take charge, and spank me when appropriate- those occasions when my 'inner, naughty girl' surfaces. This PC way (which I am new to) appears to negate any need for rows, and deals beautifully with my feelings of guilt and shame if I behave badly.
Since 'dealing with me' also fulfills the need my top has -to spank me- it also gives me a kind of permission to let go and just be naughty, from time to time, without fear of driving my top away, just the tingling, anticipatory fear of PC - paddle and cane!
I do have control - over the way I choose to behave- and therefore I control the consequences. And on those appalling occasions when I'm naughty by accident- such as the occasion of the inappropriately- timed text message, although the tingly fear is still there, there is no fear of raised voices, or cold hostilty. I know that he will calmly deal with the matter..and on these occasions, such knowledge causes me to be very obedient indeed...until the next time..
If that is a kink, well it suits me fine and I'm proud of it!
I'm not sure if the top reads this- and if he does will he be PC about my comments - 'perfectly calm'?!
Posted by: Jovee | Dec 2, 2006 9:22:37 AM
I like that this choice we have made -- all of us who are discussing this issue on this board -- to participate in this activity, has brought us together with a common bond. Obviously we are all women of different lifestyle choices. But we are all very strong women in our own ways, all making the strong CHOICE to get punished. That is what I think is the important common theme of this discussion. Our strength is in our making the choice, and not having it being forced upon us (which would be abuse). It is clear that the women posting here, though sometimes perhaps struggling with some societal ideas of "right" and "wrong" or "good and "bad," are clearly all ultimately strong and happy with their personal choices.
Posted by: Sexy Sadie | Dec 2, 2006 9:52:42 AM
Natty, your post obviously struck a chord in many of us, and I'm no exception. I too, have an inner Appalled Feminist and she comes out to do battle with me occasionally. Fortunately, the more I talk about my needs and feelings and the more I hear from intelligent, articulate women who share those needs and feelings, the more she quiets down. Doesn't mean she doesn't get riled every once in a while, but I think I'm slowly convincing her that this is ok.
Meghann, this really struck me too: "I can trust myself to know what feels hurtful and what feels healing." Amen to that! When Appalled Feminist or Insecure Woman rise up to the surface, I go deep down to my core and look for what feels healing. Well said!
Thanks, Natty, for inspiring such good conversation!
Posted by: Iris | Dec 2, 2006 12:45:10 PM
I wanted to add that while the term feminism per se irritates me - as an extreme reaction to the traditional 1950s housewife model - but I can see that there is a room for it, and extreme reaction is valuable to make a paradigm change in a society. In the same way, being a conservative Catholic, I value and respect the Protestanism as a force which brought about positive changes in the spirituality of the world in general. It's enlightenment of sorts.
I can also say that I come from the former USSR, and, moreover, from an Islamic republic, so female sujugation is a vivid issue there in some families. Just think of our neighbour, who threw acid into his wife's face many years ago. I acknowlegde that having moved to US I enjoy the priviledges I never knew - it's nice to be able to drive a car, to be able to vote and see it make a difference, and to be able to choose a career path a woman wants.
I can also see that that same power which lead to female liberation led to the degrees of sexual freedom and independence than I see as harmful to the overall wellbeing of the society and the quality of life of individual people. I think that feminism is in part responsible for divorce race being so high and for abortion being legal. While I think that it's OK to dissolve a marriage which was an obvious mistake from the start, I feel that some modern women (and men!) don't value Marriage and Family as it should be valued in order to provide happiness and stability for children and the spouses. Because women (and men) feel more free to dissolve marriage and abort pregnancy, they don't put the same degree of effort into making marriage and parenthood work. You end up with people in their 40s and 50s who have no partner in life, no strong bonds. Hence, loneliness, depression, and insecurity, which plague some modern women (and men). That of course, can also be produced by never having any choices in the first place (think Emilou Harris's song "Lillian").
I guess it's up to everyone to find their own balance in life. The bottom line is, I can see both positive and negative effects of the feminist movment, but, like many other liberation movements in history, it's got its value and place in history.
Posted by: Amber | Dec 2, 2006 3:36:28 PM
Iris, when you put Appalled Feminist and Insecure Woman together in one sentence, something suddenly clicked for me. I realised that my Appalled Feminist only ever shows up to be appalled on issues about which I feel insecure.
Thus, I've long ago reconciled my feminism with the choice to be disciplined, it's more of a domain of Contentedly Purring Feminist in me; it's one of the few issues on which I'm confident in myself.
However, as soon as we touch on my points of insecurity - such as that I've chosen an artist's carreer over using my degree in a profitable way, or that I don't have very much in the way of practical life skills - here comes my Appalled Feminist, waving her hands, urging me to go and get a job NOW, because generations of women faught for my right to the 9-5 slog.
Funny that she gets so Appalled only when I feel insecure...
Posted by: Haron | Dec 2, 2006 3:41:53 PM
It's funny that you connected Appalled Feminist and Insecure Woman so tightly, Haron. I'd really thought of them as separate identities until you remarked on how they show up together. And they show up together in me too. :-) (See, this is why I love discussion with articulate, intelligent women!) Punishment for me is something that largely goes in Contentedly Purring Feminist mode too, until my needs start to feel overwhelming and then I wonder why I *need* it so much. And then AF and IW show up.
I think another important aspect for me has been having role models who are Contentedly Purring themselves, in whatever they've chosen: kink, art, ministry, stay-at-homeness, etc. When I have seen one or more women who are confident and serene with their choices, I feel free to be confident and serene with mine as well. Because I know that a confident and serene Iris is exponentially preferable to an insecure and needy Iris.
Posted by: Iris | Dec 2, 2006 3:51:31 PM
Hi Haron,
Atagirl! Don't let those "pressures" to get you - if you want to be an artist, it's so very important not to let them influence you. I am sure you know that - it's the choice you seem to have made. My father in law says "do what you love and the money will follow." And it's true.
I wanted to share my experience a bit since I can relate to you in that way - the issue of having had academic success and choosing to not use that lucratively - for the sake of a greater good - both J. and I are well familiar with that. He went to two of the most selective schools in this country (one of which was THE most selective) for graduate and undergraduate degrees, but he chose to be a school teacher in his hometown and a farmer. A number of years ago he chose a small American college in the Balkans over Harvard for the last two years of his undergraduate career, plain and simple (and that's how we met). Don't get me wrong, he uses every bit of his natural intellegence and education in his daily work in the private high school he started 10 years ago as a high school junior, and now is an assistant principle there, as well as a teacher of many subjects. It's just that we don't drive an SUV, and it's fine by me.
Same is true for me - I am quite talented and could have gone to more school, but I wanted to live in the country, learn how to can and make jams , and live in a strong, small-town community. When I met J., he shared every single one of those values - we learned that about each other 5 minutes into the very first conversation we had, and three years later we were married. I wanted to have babies and believed that a day-care was not an option for us. Plus, I wanted to be around the farm and grow and preserve my food. So that's how I got to be "a farmwife."
Most of my friends were deeply puzzled by my choice, including my NY-city Jewish relatives (also immigrants from my hometown). They did very well here - my girl-counsin is a corporate lawyer in NY-City, with degrees in Business and Law from Duke. That's the kind of people who are my family. Every time my great-aunt would call me up, and the same is true for my mother, they ask me if I really like it? If I still like it? Still like it?
Luckily, on top of learning many new skills I learned since I moved to the country - from bread baking to deer butchering, I am able to use every bit of my natural intellectual gift, which is languages, as a free-lance translator, translating non-fiction and academic papers from four other languages into English (something I can do with my laptop without going down the driveway).
So, I consider myself fully serene and validated in every one of my choices, including the choice to have a blistered ass.
Again, I apologize that this post is long and not exactly on the original subject, but I thought it would add a bit of perspective.
Posted by: amber | Dec 2, 2006 5:03:08 PM
Wow! I was hoping this was going to encourage discussion and well, it certainly seems to have done so.
Appalled Feminist is a bitch and kills the libido like nothing else. But as Haron and Iris pointed out, she comes out to help in times of insecurity. Sadly, she had to come out for me last winter in order to deal with the very distinct bias against women in medicine, particularly in the way my illness, ME/CFIDS, is so often defined -- usually by men -- using distinctly misogynistic discourse (i.e. we're all just hysterical women trying to have it all -- no joke, they will really say that). Unfortunately, once she was out, it was like, oh shit! Now I've got to explain this whole punishment kink to her! Fuck! LOL
But, well, it appears that having to explain it to her has produced something helpful for others, which I've very happy about indeed. Actually, I'm just really happy that I've felt well enough the last couple of days to articulate one of the many topics swirling around in my head during all these months of laying in bed. I think this is the most detailed essay on spanking I've written in about a year and a half. Yay for thyroid medication, whey protein, and supplemental support for my dysfunctional mitochondria!
Regarding your distaste for feminism, Amber, I don't want to get into a semantical argument but I think it's unfortunate that it is so frequently misunderstood as trying to make women the same as men. Mija has often pointed out here, at her blog and on the usenet group where most of us met when the subject of feminism and BDSM comes up, that *equal* does not mean *same.* Feminism, as Meghann, Megs, and Sexy Sadie point out, is simply the right to choose. That men and women are equally capable of choosing for themselves what is best for them. I do not believe that all women are the same or all men are the same and certainly don't believe that men and women are the same. But just to be clear, I reject categorically that one gender is inferior to the other. I don't necessarily think you disagree, and as a feminist, I not only respect your decision to be a farm wife, but believe, as sparkle suggested, feminism is about ensuring that you have the right to make that choice free from coercion in any form, including pressure to live up to whatever ideal anyone has about what smart women do.
Very clever use of PC, Jovee. ;) Nice to see someone who is Purring Contentedly -- to invert Haron's phrase -- with her kink and sexuality. I am curious, though, regarding your comment that "punishing correctly...appears to negate any need for rows..." How so? To be honest I always feel nervous when I hear people using spanking to keep from having rows. I mean, obviously you and your partner know what works for you two. But sometimes I get the sense that others use it in lieu of having to sit down and talk out the hard issues any relationship faces.
Your feeling embarrassed, Heather, about your punishment kink is very common. Lord knows it's much more embarrassing for me. I mean, it's one thing to say you're kinky and like to be spanked. But we are putting ourselves in a subordinate position when we chose to participate in some sort of disciplinary regime -- an exceptional act that makes us profoundly vulnerable. To then talk about that to others who don't understand it makes us even more vulnerable. And, well, there's only so much vulnerable I can handle, ya know? Btw, very interesting point about the bi/hetero issue with spanking and so cool about the monologue!
"Punishment is one of the harder parts to reconcile with my inner appalled whatevers." So, so, so true, Dyke Grrl, as you write so poignantly about on your blog. As I mentioned, the feminist question is only one of several issues that conflicts at times with my punishment kink. One of them, like you Meghann, is a past history of abuse. But I loved the way you put it: "my own voice is the one that deserves my greatest trust, in regard to my own life." Finding that voice is the most empowering thing I think any of us can ever do.
Lordy I think I've written more than I did in my post. Okay I don't think I've forgotten anybody...
Posted by: Natty | Dec 2, 2006 11:20:26 PM
This really is an amazing discussion. I too went down the school teacher route- much to my mother's disapproval who thought I could and should make money...but I wouldn't change anything, since it has been so rewarding in so many ways.
Natty, the comment I made about 'negating' the need for rows' . Well, this is still early days, he is very steady, and a perfect foil for my somewhat volatile nature..he has a calming effect which is so soothing. I think I should have used 'squabbles' instead of rows, because yes, one day I am sure that 'heated verbal disagreements' will happen, and yes, it can be very healthy. But we do discuss deeply, in fact I am facing a deep discussion ( gulp!) in the not too distant future. And interestingly, I think I should confess that I have thought 'I would prefer to be spanked than have the sort of discussion I am facing'- which certainly proves your point! So I shall be very brave *sigh* and discuss...
However, you have now prompted me to think that in past (all non-spank)relationships, such talk about 'hard issues' has been avoided by both parties -by the 'ex' who would not talk, and by myself, in the knowledge that broaching 'deep issues' would lead to a row because of his unwillingness to talk.
As I said, I am new to this, but I now feel that I am in an environment/ relationship structure where it is safe to 'let go' ie/ let feelings out, and safe to talk about 'deep stuff'- that is, safe to be 'completely me', as opposed to the insecure 'little girl' who wants to please at all times. And that sorry state of affairs came from childhood abuse- emotional abuse by my mother, and an environment in which I wasn't allowed to show any negative feelings, nor were real issues ever discussed. I can see the links, but hey! it sure has taken me a long, long time!
Sorry- gone on far too long, but you have all been so thought provoking. Many thanks from Jovee, in England, (9.32am- and I should be working!)
Posted by: jovee | Dec 3, 2006 1:34:45 AM
Natty: You have opened up a very meaningful discussion, and if nothing else, it is really comforting to know that we all grapple with the 'appalled feminist' within us in some way. As someone who is very new to acknowledging my spanking kink, and then a few months later, having a bit of a rethink due to "appalled feminist" thoughts, I can only say that the many moments of comfort and sheer bliss that come from a discipline relationship cannot be replaced by any other thing in life that I know. I often feel that I have stumbled upon the elixir of life, and that I carry around a secret that I would love to share, but dare not.
There are definitely concessions to be made, but perhaps most of those are in our head. My guess is that our partners probably encourage us to be everything that we would want to be, but maybe are a bit afraid to be at times. Women carry around so many insecurities about everything really - their value, their achievements, their mothering, their appearance. Guys struggle to understand that. They tend to love us just the way we are. There is so much attention, so much affection and so much love to be had in this kind of relationship. If we play our cards right, I think we are in the best place to achieve whatever goals we set ourselves.
Posted by: Rob | Dec 3, 2006 4:28:12 AM
Nicely put, Rob.
Posted by: Amber Hemingway | Dec 3, 2006 9:46:28 AM
Okay I am reading this post and all it's responses sort of holding my breath.
I was a rather militant feminist in my youth (clinic defenses, kiss-ins on cathedral steps and all) and at 32 am still an anarchist. I think coercion is wrong, that noone should EVER force another person to do anything. Yet I want someone to spank me until I cry, and keep on doing so even if I'm begging them to stop, when I feel like I'm "bad" which is like, all the time.
I've never managed to have a real discipline relationship. No one has ever made me feel really "punished" because no one I've been with has had the heart to go that far. I've not many any true tops in r/l...and as I'm known for my outspokeness, strong and radical ideas, and complete lack of fear of men, how would they find me?? I met a man online recently who was going to be my disciplinarian, and I backed out on him because he was sexist and making rules about swearing based solely on my gender and it freaked me out.
I think this is a really fucked-up society, and that power and relationships are very distorted by this. I can accept that this combined with certain aspects of my childhood have made me who I am, and that sometimes one just has to be themselves even if it doesn't make sense. I'm not unappreciative of contradictions, in fact I love them...but I hide this part of myself anyway.
That was long and all about me, sorry. I read this blog all the time and I'm fairly envious of all of you and your relationships. Thanks for having this here to give me something to think about and help me feel less alone.
Posted by: angrylittlegirl | Dec 3, 2006 10:15:26 PM
Let me say first that I love this discussion and I love this site! I came looking for just such a discussion about a month ago and I am thrilled to read such intelligent thoughtful comments from all of you. Thank you all for being who you are, you are perfect!!
I've been married for 10 years and spanko much longer, so I was surprised when insecurities reared their ugly head recently, and I needed to reexamine everything all over again. It was a really really dark time for me. Luckliy in doing that work I rekindled something my relationship with my husband and we both are having a fabulous time. So I suppose my point to add is that examining your sexuality- and who you are as a woman in our culture- is always worthwhile and always positive and always invigorating, though often very very hard. And when you post about it here it is a real lifeline.
A note to angrylittlegirl, I found my dream guy the old fashioned way, we met, started dating and then before we had sex I sat him down and laid it all out (ok, it was immediately before we had sex for the first time so he was ready to agree to anything) It was hard, super hard, to expose my self in that way but if it works you've got a wonderfully open relationship from the very beginning. Best of luck to you!
Nellie
Posted by: Nelle | Dec 3, 2006 11:42:45 PM
Dearangrylittlegirl,
I haven't met any true tops in r/l either, but I have found that if someone loves you it is amazing how willing they can be to be everything that you need them to be. I have to think that if it beefs up a woman's libido, then they'll be inclined to consider the proposal positively. It seems to me that some women are pretty good at creating constructs and recognizing that there is an intellectual side of their brain and a primal/feminine side of their brain. In the same way I think men can be good at recognizing those two sides of a woman too. I have had lots of conversations with men, including my three sons, about what men want in a woman and I keep getting the same answer - they want a woman who is kind. Turns out we both want the same thing. Very best wishes.
Posted by: Rob | Dec 4, 2006 12:21:11 AM
Hi, Angrygirl,
Treasures are found in the most surprising of places.
I would like to second what Rob said - you don't have to have a kinky man to have a high-intensity kinky play, although it's certainly a bonus if you run into one. Most likely a nice guy will go along with the kink and learn a few things along the way, as did my 100% vanilla, conservative-Catholic, small-town America Upper-Midwest farmboy husband, from the land where women are strong and men are goodlooking. All it takes is a man who's a good sport, as well as mutual trust and commitement, and dedicated cultivation. As does any relationship. In my case, took over 5 years. But I was willing to wait.
I agree that it is hard to tell a vanilla man that I like to count my lashes and call him Sir and have my palms strapped - he goes like "Huh?" That's the first time you mention it. But you just keep pitching it at him, and I believe the guys do become comfortable with what seemed inconceivable at first. He always makes fun of me first time I suggest some new fantasy, and doing certain things is hard for him. But only the first time I mention it. So far, he has incorporated all of my kinky dreams into a wonderful reality. For example, 3 years ago, we were getting amourous and I asked him to spank me pretty hard with a belt. He obliged, but was upset in the end, cause this was the first time he bruised me, while I thought it was the hottest action we've had (we were 23 then). Now, that was quite a shock for him, as he is a rather gentle man with good self-control. These days, however, he has no problem hitting me until I am quite seriosly in pain and bruising me (within reasonable limits). The point I am making is that people do evolve and their perspective broadens, and it's OK to start with a vanilla guy, if you happen to fall for one. But if you run into a kinky one, all the better.
Good luck.
Posted by: amber | Dec 4, 2006 1:59:02 AM
Something's just occurred to me while I was posting a link to this conversation on my and Abel's blog.
Do you folks think that the Inner Feminist is more likely to be Appalled by your need for punishment if you were a feminist before you decided you were into punishment, than if you knew you were into punishment first?
If that makes sence?
Posted by: Haron | Dec 4, 2006 4:31:24 AM
